The Shropshires and a loss of common sense — Michael Schmidt on sheep saga

Commentary from raw milk farmer Michael Schmidt:

From Shropshire Sheep.org. Click image to go to post on that site.

Are we at War?

As the news spreads fast about the latest assault on a small farm in Eastern Ontario I ask myself if we are entering into a new and dangerous face of bureaucratic aggression. The door to door searches and the searching helicopters certainly suggest exactly that.

At the same time I do understand the frustration of those in power, thinking that everything supposed to be under control, people will comply, and do as they say.

The underhanded tactics by the C(F)IA to quickly establish the fictional existence of scrapie in those shropshire sheep, the posting of farm security guards at Montana Jones farm gates during the night, and the Saturday morning confiscation of her 9 remaining sheep should make us all extremely nervous. What will be next?????

Was there any rationality or urgency to act. Even if in fact this one sheep had scrapie would the co-operative approach not have been better to establish public credibility?

The denial to have access to  the testing results for a third party review does not establish any credibility or due process.

The denial of a legal review of their actions by coming in on a Saturday to take the sheep does in itself disqualifies the legitimacy of their powers.

Montana Jones is right when she writes that this recent action is nothing else than a revenge for the sheep taken into “protective custody” by the Farmers Peace Corp.

The Globe and Mail describes it rightly as follows: this  is a tale worthy of a mystery novel, replete with the threat of a killer disease, a kidnapping by a shadowy group, the fate of a threatened species hanging in the balance, the Kafkaesque actions of a government agency and – this being Canada – a constitutional challenge for good measure.

Let’s take a moment to look at the current escalation of this case.

The official language has clearly changed in respect to the factual dangers of scrapie. More and more you find internet postings linking scrapie, BST and, Jacob Kreutzfeld desease. This will help, to turn public emotions based on fear around to in fact support the dictatorial behaviour of the C(F)IA.

The C(F)IA is evading the necessary legal scrutiny by simply erasing evidence and evading the request for accountability.

I am not at all familiar with all the details in regards to the negotations between the agency and Montana Jones, but the request for a judicial review seems to be fair.

Montana Jones on several occasions posted publicly her willingness to work with authorities in the interest of the sheep industry but also in the interest of the genetic diversity of the gene pool, trying to preserve a rare breed.

Let’s put aside the emotional accusations here on the Bovine between individuals, sorrounding the source of a dead sheep in Alberta and forget the technicalities of registered pure shropshires. The fact that we are neglecting our diversity and cleansing our genetical pool to eradicate a certain desease is like killing all human beings to eradicate the chances of dying.

Exactly the same scenario is currently playing itself out in Michigan in regards to pigs. Armed raids are underway and all the heritage breeds will eventually be erased.The chickens will be next because of some designer flu, the cows and horses will probably follow.

We are in a fricking mess to say the least. It almost feels as if the final assault to erase the small farm has begun.

It was indeed refreshing to read about the action of the Farmers Peace Corp. Who are they and what are their motivations?

The name alone suggests that they are not out there to wage a war against the Government.

I have to admit I was relieved when I saw the postings that they have been taken into “protective custody”. No word in their handwritten note about fighting, no word about further actions except, let’s find a way to establish conclusive evidence before we destroy unnecessary heritage sheep.

If bureaucrats use this as an excuse to abandon due legal process than at least we know that we are in fact at war.

The war against the natives has brought out the darkest sides of governance, this same destructive spirit is emerging now against the farming community. Just think of the imposed government regulations on small abattoirs as a result of massive failures in the corporate meat industry. Or the devastation and neglect of the local community which is reflected in the thousands of destroyed barns along roads and highways. Yes we are at war my friends.

There comes a point where we ALL need to realise that silence is the act of concenting and therefore empowering the emerging faceless dictatorship.

We need peace not war.

We need dialogue not confrontation.

We need courage not fear.

Regards

Michael Schmidt

The latest from Montana Jones on her story about the CFIA and her herd of Shropshire sheep.

23 Comments

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23 responses to “The Shropshires and a loss of common sense — Michael Schmidt on sheep saga

  1. nedlud

    Thanks for this, Michael.

    It is important to note that the bureaucrats and the prevalent government and business types (which are really the same as the military types) will not admit to error. Our long march to our present ‘civilized’ society (what I usually call techno-fascism, because it is so accurately descriptive) is built on war and aggression and hostile takeover. It is all built on this, and not peace. Not peace at all. Peace has become just a word. The actual peaceful (ie., stable and agrarian) societies have been destroyed in the making of this, this system we now effectively perform slave labor for and try our best to live/survive under.

    And for them to admit ANY error is to watch it all (their power and control) crumble away. Because there has been so much error. And so they would much rather see us (the few active resisters to this madness) dead, first.

    We are in trouble.

    Our only hope is that enough people awaken and that they do it soon.

    your friend,
    nedlud

  2. I read the letter in the Globe and mail today from Ontario Sheep Marketing Agency, Ontario Goat,Canadian Sheep Breeders Association, Livestock Genetics Assosiation and the Canadian Sheep Federation. I think that they have something important to say and turning this into a war is not appropriate.

    • Evelyn I agree with you, however;
      To call something a war is in my opinion determined by the presence of aggression and deception of one side.
      The breakdown of communication, failure of providing conclusive evidence, lack of due legal process, overriding all principles of due diligence and using bullying methods by ignoring due process is nothing short of war measures.
      Was there a need to kill the remaining sheep on the weekend without providing evidence for third party review does not create a sense of fairness or honesty.
      If the CFIA would in fact care about public support and credibility there would have been absolutely no rush to suddenly destroy evidence without accountability.
      To use the sheep napping as an excuse for these drastic measures is nothing short of demonstrating they want to demonstrate their power.
      In regards to the sheep marketing agency and sheep/goat breeders association they all somehow depend on Goverment support why should they not join them in creating this image of “killer decease sheep on the loose”
      Judging by many comments posted by so called real farmers I always detect a certain amount of arrogance towards the new emerging crop of farmers like Montana Jones, who happened to be a writer and artist, how dare should anyone take her position serious??????
      I detest this arrogance because of it’s righteousness. I had encountered almost 30 years ago the same attitude. The reality however is that most of those who ridiculed our new approach of responsible farming are gone and we are still here planting seeds for a new approach to farming.
      The war propaganda is well underway. Scrapie now is the new monster out there, unpredictable, dangerous and will kill, guess what????
      The export market. If we reduce all our arguments in favor of destruction based on the economic consequences than Nazi Germany should be our roadmap to erase all unworthy genetics once and for all.
      It’s the process which determines if we are at war not the issue itself.
      That’s why I waded into this debate.
      By the way I am in support of measures to eradicate scrapie if it can be eradicated. Based on what we know I doubt that we in fact have not enough knowledge to even determine the cause of scrapie and how realistic it is to believe it can be eradicated by killing all the prone sheep.
      Looking at the root of some of our challenges is sometimes to complicated that’s why this Government killing sprees is a convenient way to solve a problem they do not want to adresse.
      Regards
      Michael

      • Lorri Nelson

        I am trying so hard, here, Michael, really I am. I do not want to sink to the level of snide comments pointing out the ridiculousness of this or the outright blatant errors in that. So I will do my utmost to be civil, and in return I ask that you, and your supporters, will read what I have to say and take it seriously.
        We are not “arrogant,” and I am not sure what you mean by “real farmers,” but it sounds bad so I guess we are not that either. We don’t run a feedlot, we don’t use antibiotics (unless an animal is sick and needs them), we feed hay and grain and grass. We don’t inject growth hormomes, we rely on good genetics, good feed, and Mother Nature.
        We don’t support the CFIA or refute Montana Jones’s information because of any personal vendetta, I myself have never met her. We do these things for several reasons. She and her lawyer do put out conflicting information (today for instance, she says 14 sheep tested negative, than a few paragraphs later it’s 11. But I said I wouldn’t do that, so I’ll stop there). Their story is very one-sided. They do not answer direct, pointed, specific questions.
        But the most compelling reasons not to support her are basic and fundamental, and they pertain to our rights, that are equal to and the same as her rights and your rights, the rights that everyone is so keen to protect. Well, we have rights too…. Patric has the right not to be repeatedly accused of misidentifying that sheep, of mislabeling the sample, possibly even of doing so deliberately…. I as a commercial (read, unregistered, although I also have registered sheep) sheep producer have the right not to be accused of what amounts to sitting around waiting for my worthless sheep to be destroyed so the government will give me a check… all sheep producers, whether they have a flock of a thousand or a dozen, have the right to know that no one gets special treatment when it comes to scrapie just because they made the most noise….. the CFIA has the right to get some credit for the program they already have in place to retain rare genetics and breed scrapie resistance into animals from those rare lines…. the sheep/goat breeders associations have the right to not be labeled as leeches draining the tax coffers (we don’t pay taxes to the associations, we pay membership/registration fees and checkoff)….
        I realize that this is your blog, you call the shots, you set the tone. But remember, there is a perception out there in today’s society that if it’s on the internet it must be true. People listen to you, they believe you, so you have at least a little bit of responsibility to try and be reasonably objective. We all know you are not a supporter of the government, okay, that’s cool. But sometimes the things you and others like you post (organizations like CCF) are offensive to the very people you aim to represent, in this case the small farmer. Almost all the sheep in this country are raised on small farms. We buy and sell sheep amongst ourselves. We need to know that if there is a possibility of scrapie in a flock, that producer will do the right thing.
        Lastly, I ask you what is really wrong with export? (I am asking this quite seriously, I don’t get it.) I raise Canadian Arcott sheep. The other day we had a call from a producer who has researched several breeds and discovered that the Canadian Arcott is exactly what he is looking for. We had to tell him we can’t help him. He is in Vermont. Now on a large scale, you can be against it, but when you look at it on the level of the producer, here I am with these wonderful sheep, and there he is wanting a few, and we can’t do business. What would be so wrong if I sold him a few sheep?

      • charles jasunas

        Virgin coconut oil can stop scrapie I believe. Because it has helped people who have alzeimers and other neuralogical desease.All I say is try it and maybe we’ll get a surprise.Mix it in their feed and take it from there.

      • Patric Lyster

        MIchael, there is nothing in the policy that says to kill all the sheep that are prone to getting scrapie. It rather looks at risk levels and the transmission of scrapie and determines which sheep are most at risk, and then the decision is made. You can raise a flock of QQ sheep, if you wish to. No problem there, except if your flock is found to be the most likely source, based on science and the investigation, of a case of scrapie (found in a sheep WHE 24S, born on the farm in Ontario). Then there is the investigation, and genotyping and risk assesment and then if deemed necessary, due to risk (which can be influenced by a number of factors, such as the dam and grand-dam no longer being alive, a flock not having very many older sheep, an uncooperative owner who did not want to give trace in and trace out information {which if you really want to find out where scrapie came from, if it is/was present, is necessary}). What most people seem to be missing, is the fact that an animal born in the flock tested positive for scrapie (most sheep that get scrapie acquire it before 1 year of age, the ewe was 14 months old when sold), and this flock has sold animals to other breeders, thus if there is (as appears to be the case) scrapie in the flock, it may have inadvertently been spread to other flocks (the longer it is left unchecked, the greater the risk of spreading more, and perhaps affecting many more Shropshires {especially if one is familiar with the high number of susceptible animals within the breed}). It is never nice to lose sheep, regardless of the cause. Unfortunately, in this case there was a good reason, and it appears a very good reason.

        The sad part is that the owner refused the pilot project. Just think about it, she was offered 2 years mating to RR rams. What developments in research might have happened in those 2 years? Rather than just lose the genetics, she coud have preserved some. And a major point, it would have given her 2 years to fight the order of destruction, but for some reason, it was more important to not take the offer of the pilot project, which pretty much ensured that a number of sheep were getting destroyed. Sometimes, you have to think things over and consider the options and alternatives. In my opinion, taking the pilot project offer and using some science based fact (and provisions already in the CFIA protocol) almost all of these genetics could have been saved in one form or another, and potentially almost all of the sheep could have been saved. I offered to give advice and assistance, but it was refused. Sometimes people get hung up on a principle and don’t see the big picture and the opportunities in exploring other options.

    • Lorri
      I have to say you did try hard and it showed and I think the readers do appreciate.
      Just for your clarification. This is not my blog. I do not manage it nor do I decide the content. I know most people think that it is me but it is not.
      No time , no energy.
      Another point of clarification. I do not hate Government. I do not even think that Government is the problem here because the elected officials have most of the time no clue. So , no sense to get worked up about it.
      I have been trying for decades to establish a working relationship and it is like it is. most politicians come up with a standard answer without substance and without any personal engagement why?
      The bureaucrats in the middle are the ones calling the shots. They are laughing at us and they are laughing at the politicians because they are exchangeable .
      I still have a very hard time to understand the amount of anger towards Montana and the CCF. The way you describe the reason seems more a technicality than an issue of real concern. I am not dismissing your side at all.
      I have not enough knowledge from any side on the issue, except that I was trained 38 years ago as a traveling sheppard going with the sheep to areas where no other use was feasable.
      25 years ago I proposed to our local township that we would graze the side roads in order to prevent pesticide spraying.
      We had a real sheppard with two dogs. We had bus loads of tourist coming to see our flock.
      It ended because the township was afraid of liability.Am I against export?
      No, but I believe that we can do well without export may be even better.
      The only reason I mentioned export was in relation to the economic priority. Genes had no weight but export.
      Regards
      Michael

      • Lorri Nelson

        I will now clarify, re the anger towards Montana and the CCF. Again, I will try to stay calm but just know that it’s tough!
        1) Patric Bought WHE 24S in 2007. She was tattooed in the ear, like all registered sheep are. NO OTHER sheep in Canada have the flock letters WHE, except Wholearth sheep. Patric does not run hundreds of sheep, he knows which animal is which. He is not an idiot who is incapable of assiging a sample to the sheep it came from. Yet Ms Jones and Ms Selick continue to cast doubt on the identity of the sheep. They base this on the loss of the CSIP ear tag, but you have to realize that ear tags can be lost, it happens every day; a tattoo is the most permanent form of identification.
        2) The other samples sent in with WHE 24S were all Dorset, not Shropshires. The sample was then DNA traced back to WHE 24S’s daughters. Since hers was the only Shropshire sample in the group, it is impossible for there to have been any misidentification.
        3) Ms Jones insists that the two daughters of WHE 24S are somehow proof that there was no scrapie. But her information is wrong, and she refuses to change it even though Patric has corrected her several times. One daughter is a QR and was never tested at all! She’s outside with her lamb right now (so that line is alive and well). The other daughter did test negative, but she was under a year old and would have tested negative even if incubating the disease, which she very well could have been.
        4) Ms Jones has allowed posts on her website calling Patric’s management practices and farm conditions into question. Scrapie is a prion disease, not a viral or bacterial infection. Conditions have nothing to do with it. But people who do not understand scrapie read those comments and take them serioulsy. It casts enough doubt on her story to suit her needs but it is just wrong, there is no other word for it. Bashing someone else in order to deflect attention away from yourself is no way to fight a battle.
        5) For many years now, sheep producers have been going through this. Previous producers have had sheep destroyed in an effort to get a handle on this disease. What did they all go through that for, if it can all be undone by one uncooperative producer? As I said before, we are our own market, we rely on other producers to play fair.
        6) Ms Jones keeps talking about her heritage genetics and irreplaceable lines, but she has not been registering her sheep for five years. You have to realize, in the national numbers, her unregistered ones do not count. We are busting our butts over here to bring up the numbers in this breed, and start new flocks. But we have it on good authority that in eastern Canada, the demand for Shrops is dwindling away to nothing. If you look on the CLRC website (registrations) you can find Wholearth sheep that are now dead. This is because they were shipped. You can tell because more than one sheep will have the same date of death. Another producer had a ram from Patric that they wanted to sell, but had to ship him because nobody wanted him. So much for preserving a breed.
        Thank-you for allowing me to post this, people need both sides of the story.

      • Lorri:
        1) I was not present when obex was cut out of 24S and submitted to CFIA. It is CFIA regulations that require a CSIP pink traceability tag, not mine. The sheep I sold Patric had one, and he told me he did not lose it, but had it and didn’t give it to CFIA “to make a point.” He submitted 9 samples that day. Anybody would question identity and ask for validation. I have yet to be given evidence that that sheep was mine..I am open to receiving it.
        2) How can you tell Dorset brain tissue from Shropshire brain tissue? All in plastic baggies, all obexes look alike. What does tattoo have to do with that?
        3) Offspring information came from CFIA.
        4) Please provide link…I can’t see anything there about Patric’s bad management nor farm conditions. There was a comment with a vague comment asking what his were like. Patric could have answered…but I can’t even find that. I have asked you questions here in response to your accusations…but nowhere have I ever said anything close to “Bashing” or anything remotely derogatory toward yourself or Patric. Not then, and not now, despite your vehemence.
        5) I have not been an “uncooperative producer”. I have a list of suggestions applied to all heritage breed shepherds, which, if CFIA institutes them, would prevent a huge loss in genetic diversity in Canada’s heritage sheep.
        6) Another speculation..none of this is based in fact. My records are intact..all my stock is registered or registerable, and for you to say “If you look on the CLRC website (registrations) you can find Wholearth sheep that are now dead. This is because they were shipped. You can tell because more than one sheep will have the same date of death.” is just sheer nonsense. Where did you get this idea? Please send the link to those animals to support your claim. If a date is listed in several places its the day the registrar updated files …thats likely why you get a group of same date. Most breeders on clrc.ca have not notified clrc of deceased sheep. I will when I update my registrations, but it seems from the records online that most breeders do not bother, they only list those born. As for your dwindling away comment..I have not found that to be the case.

      • Lorri Nelson

        Montana:
        1) I was not present at the time the obex sample was taken either. What does that have to do with anything?
        The CFIA does not rquire the tag, the tag stays with the carcass. The CFIA requires the number only.
        What you say Patric said is pure fabrication and I should think that someone who is so prone to waving the defamation flag would be a little more careful what you say publicly.
        The fact is, a scrapie-positive sheep was born on your farm and your way of dealing with it is simply to say, no it wasn’t. Your reasoning is to imply that no one else but you is capable of knowing one sheep from another or properly identifying a sample. If it wasn’t born on your farm, why did it bear your tattoo?
        2) The tattoo has nothing to do with differentiating a Shrop from a Dorset. It has everything to do with identifying the scrapie ewe you to your flock. Differentiating the breeds has to do with the DNA trace back to her daughters, as you very well know. (Readers, DNA won’t trace Shropshire lambs back to a Dorset ewe.)
        3) What do you mean, offspring information came from CFIA!? One of the daughters was (and still is) alive and well! They got her sample directly from her!
        4) If anyone wants a link, I would be happy to give it ( it is to a cached page, because you edited the comment), but Patric has posted it in its entirety here, if they post his comment. Odd that you can’t find his comment, as it is posted right on your own website. (FYI he saved EVERYTHING.)
        5) You were in fact uncooperative, in my opinion. The CFIA asked for trace-in and trace-out information, and you didn’t give it for two years. They offered you a program to save your lines, and you refused it. Doesn’t sound very cooperative to me. And don’t you say you had to declare your premises infected to get on the program, I got that. But you know, you can’t always get what you want in this life. Maybe you wouldn’t have liked it but I don’t think it would have hurt you. Would it have been worse than what you’re going through now? Really?
        6) Your records are not “intact.” You are no longer listed with CLRC. However we can still find every animal you ever registered (although nothing since 2007), it just takes a little longer. As for what you call “nonsense,” well, okay, I was trying to be discreet…. but the reason we know some people have shipped animals from you, and why some producers can’t sell Shrops, is because they told us. I was trying to be nice.

        Dwindling away, yes, unfortunately. Are you aware of the poll the CSF recently did? and the stuff some of the producers are saying about rare breeds? They are saying things like, who cares, rare breeds are not important anyway. It’s really sad. We need to get Shrops out there, particularly getting commercial producers to use the rams, so people can see what a great little sheep they are. How are we going to do that now?

        And I think it’s important for non-sheep-producing readers to understand, there does not seem to be any way now to preserve your genetics. If you plan to preserve your lines, just how do you propose to do that? Even if you were to get them back, and the CFIA decided to allow you to keep them, your sheep are not registered, they are lambing out of your sight, you can’t prove how many lambs each ewe had, you would have to DNA trace every single lamb back to its parents at your own expense….. How are you going to save those lines? What have you accomplished? (Please, I am not asking in regards to the oppressive government and genotype destruction and all that other conspiracy theory stuff. I want to know, at the level of the sheep producer- what have you accomplished?)

        One other question, I may as well put it here as starting another post: Just what do you have to say to the CFIA now that they have given you all negative results on that last batch? If they really were as malicious as you say they are, they could have easily manufactured a positive, but they got all negatives and they were honest with you about it. Thoughts?

      • Patric Lyster

        Ms. Jones, if I had the tag and didnt give it to CFIA, then you are admitting that I had the tag at the time of taking the obex sample. Once again, in my opinion, you can’t keep your story straight. I told you and your lawyer why it wasn’t provided, because I had burnt the carcass (as well as the carcasses of the coyote kills) without getting the permit. I told you that I knew where the tag was, but I wasn’t going to sift through the ashes to find the tag. It wasn’t necessary as the sheep was identified properly and just because CFIA didn’t record the provided number, doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. I guess that according to Ms. Jones, her tattoos are not good enough to identify her sheep, so I am wondering how she has identified her sheep that she claims are registerable (as it appears that the Canadian Sheep Breeeders requires the sheep to be tattooed under 4 months of age, or tagged with dual tags {which it doesn’t appear Ms. Jones was using}). They accept tattoos.
        I provided the information about the offspring, CFIA only confirmed it by DNA.

        Also, you edited or had the person posting edit her comment, but as of earlier today, you had still left my post up. Perhaps you should have thought about the stuff you were putting up before you had your lawyer send a warning about defamation of character. I have kept copies, and they will be used in court if you would like to go.

        As to cooperation, well in my opinion, your defonition and most people’s are not the same. How come it took so long to give out the trace out information, especially when you didn’t sell very many registered sheep, over the 12 years. It would appear that you sold less than 20, at least ones you transferred the papers on. Anyone reporting their income, would have records of those sales and they should easily be found in your tax papers (which are required to be kept for a number of years). In my opinion about the most cooperation you did was to sort the sheep so that they could be easily “stolen”, when CFIA was coming to destroy them in the morning.

      • small farmer

        Lorri,

        Quote from the Scrapie Canada website:

        “If you do chose to remove the obex yourself, you must include the animal identification with the sample (i.e. place the ear tag in the bag/container with the obex and clearly label the bag/container with the date and animal ID, including the lab submission form in the shipping package.

        Note: If you are sending samples to the Alberta Agriculture lab, they request that producers within Alberta submit the entire head, while out-of-province producers must submit only the obex.”

        Just making a point that misinformation is flying fast and furious from a number of sources and I wish everyone would be more accurate and precise. And yes I understand about tattoos and DNA so there is no need for you to repeat that information.

        I’m also curious. How many sheep that tested negative on the live test in Alberta tested positive after slaughter?

  3. charles jasunas

    I believe that virgin coconut oil will stop scrapie. It has helped people with neuralogical problems like alzeimers and other brain desease.You have nothing to loose, so try it. Put it in their feed and see what happens. You might be surprized.

    • BC Food Security

      From the way it is described Scrapie sounds more like a infection than a wasting disease ? Otherwise how could other sheep become “contaminated” ? I am not an expert . Raw Virgin Coconut Oil is a great product for increasing immunity but for a full blown infection it may be too little too late ?
      2. I would personally like to see reseach as to whether Chlorine Dioxide (see the work of Andreas Kulkar of Spain and Jim Humble of Mexico ) injections would ameliorate the problem ? It would be highly ironic if only a few dollars worth of daily CDS injections over a one month period solved the problem ? Of course , the CFIA and HPB are not interested in brainstorming quick solutions especially if they are not coming from the Military-Pharmaceutical-Industrial complex . Andreas and his research team already spent a year testing 800 cows (some sick and some healthy) with daily CDS injections and the preliminary were favourable. The costs were about 10%-15% that of vaccination and there were a number of recoveries outright from illness. To repeat, he did NOT run tests on Scrapie cases. But it would be well worth a try (on the sheep) if only there was a more mature and healthy relationship with the CFIA and Health Canada ?

  4. Yes read all the comments on the Globe and Mail to get a sense about the public perception

  5. How quickly they can act to commit an irreversible, heinous crime against our civil rights and rob us forever of the freedom to choose an alternative to “agri-food”… but stall endlessly when asked to double-check their findings?

    What ever happend to, “measure twice, cut once”? Or, maybe respect for due process, freedom of access to information, and the right to impartial review?

    This is not a declaration of war by a small farm on the government. This is a small farm’s stand against the acts of war committed against them, and every other person who should ever choose to raise a heritage breed, or eat a homegrown vegetable.

    • Lorri Nelson

      And this is another sheep producer’s stand…. standing up for the sheep producers in Canada who, as I said in the previous post, need to know that a fellow producer will step up. We cannot export sheep, we supply only half the domsetic demand, which means the other half is imported from other countries. We buy and sell sheep amongst ourselves, and if a flock gets scrapie, the other producers need to know the owner will do the right thing. The worst part of this whole thing is that nobody will want Shropshire sheep over there anymore. Over here in the west, the demand seems to be up, and we have sales, but I despair for other Shropshire producers in eastern Canada. I also despair for Canada’s reputation as it pertains to livestock, because we look like a country that has no control over its reportable diseases.

  6. Reading all this I can see that some of you still don’t get the concept that nobody should be subjected to violent acts in our society regardless if those doing it are government agents or not. It doesn’t matter whether it’s sheep, milk, pigs or something that has nothing to do with farming. This is a very dangerous president that is being set in Canada when government agents can do these things and not go through the legal process. Is the legal process not supposed to be there to protect our individual rights? Even criminals who kill children have their day in court before they are jailed. How well is our Canadian legal process working in this case? If the last sheep are now dead, it’s like burying the evidence and I agree that it sure looks like they are out to show their power. If we are not to think these things of government agencies then why do they continue to go down this road and not take a more temperate stance? What happened to letting the legal system work through this before taking such drastic action? All this and there is no danger to the public as Health Canada says? Those last sheep weren’t a danger to anyone as they weren’t leaving that farm. They should not have been killed until legal process was complete and some kind of threat to the general public was proven. My opinion. I wonder what will happen when the devastating results of GMO’s are proven. What will everyone think when government agencies come in and burn farmers crops in a ploy to “protect the public”? What about spraying RoundUp? Lots of research shows that glyphosate is destroying the bees and creating problems for humans. Some farmers still us it. I won’t buy from them but even so should they be raided and jailed or should they be educated and given other solutions? Michael is right. This is dangerous territory and just another indication that small farms are being targeted in quiet and underhanded ways. It scares me when even some farmers don’t see this trend. Whether Montana Jones should or should not be allowed to keep the sheep, whether she is right or wrong, all these current issues are the tip of the iceberg.

  7. BC Food Security

    Margo: It is ironic that you mention due process for criminals. When Coquitlam pig farmer Picton got “sidetracked” from butchering pigs to prostitutes (40 or 50 at last count ) , the BC government spent $150 million (and rising ) on the investigation and legal process. I might add they never finished the job . They gave up after trying him for 6 counts of “second-degree” murder even though it is possible he did not act alone . Probably even the government with its bottomless pockets and resources recognized it would cost a billion dollars at the rate they were going !

    • Patric Lyster

      Ms. Jones, the tag was present when the obex was removed from WHE 24S. The tag number was submitted to CFIA, the fact that someone did not record it from CFIA and the carcass was disposed of (law requires the carcass of a dead sheep to be disposed of in Alberta, at least long before the test results were available) so the tag was not available later. Once again, you keep questioning the identity of the sheep, are you saying that you didn’t tattoo WHE 24S? The way to make sure the brain tisssue was from WHe 24S (a Shropshire) was to identify her through DNA, to her offspring (they couldn’t parentage test as her dam was dead, as was her grand-dam. You keep saying they didn’t die from scrapie, but fail to say how they died. You also said that Lava didn’t die from scrapie, that may be, but she did test positive.So just because they didn’t die (in your opinion, only, unless you are going to produce necrospy information to prove cause of death in some more of your healthy sheep {which seem to keep dying off quite often} )from scrapie doesn’t mean they didn’t have it. Also to note, the transmission of scrapie (most common through birth fluids and colostrum {some science is now saying milk, as well) is most common at lambing time (the younger the sheep when exposed, the more susceptible) and since Lava and WHE 24S were born within a few days of each other, it is quite possible to see the connection and it very esily could have been contracted by Lava from another positive ewe (perhaps the dead dam of WHE 24S, may have been positive).
      As to the comment about my management, I see that you edited the persons post or had them edit it, because it is now different from what was there before. Was that done on your lawyers advice? No worries, because I kept a copy and here is the wording as it was on your shropshiresheep.org site, quote “It is an outrage to slaughter such a healthy looking flock. Sick sheep look sick. I breed Shropshires in Australia along with a few other breeders. Fiona Chambers having the largest flock which is now I understand, under the National Trust of Australia. So rare here in Aus I am having trouble getting a ram to breed with for 2012. If a ewe has been on a property for five years, they should be taking a closer look at that property, not yours. I tell purchasers, there are no guarantees once sheep leave my care. If purchasers are not willing to take heed to advice to look after their animals properly, its not my fault. Different story if the animal tested for Scrapie within 2-3 days of selling. Five years, is more than half the life of the sheep. What is the animal welfare like on that property? Probably lacking in nutrition. Someone over in Canada, needs to rethink this ridiculous decision.” Editing the comment doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. Also note, you never corrected her to say the sheep was never on my property for 5 years. Why? In my opinion, it was just because it ade your story sound better. This is not the only thing you have edited or chenaged, too bad that the internet is a public place and some people aren”t as stupid as you think they are.
      Sorry to tell you, Montana, but the CLRC site doesn’t list the sheep in your inventory that you have notified them are dead (papers are supposed to be sent in). Check out your inventory (which for some reason has disappeared from the CLRC site, did you request it or are your priveleges suspened due to non transfer of papers, or is there another reason, suhc as too much information that contradicted what you are saying, very interesting) and explain where all the sheep went or how they died. There were at least 44 born in 2004, 2005, 2006 that were still in your inventory, as well as some of the Jackson and Cramirro ewes, and I know that one Jackson ewe in your inventory was dead, as she is one that you never trabnsferred the papers on. So please explain what the facts are, dead sheep are not found in an inventory, also the policy of CLRC is to list flocks for 3 years since latest membership was paid, but perhaps they changed that (or there is another reason that your inventory doesn’t appear anymore). As to the sheep being registerabe, that is different than registered, so please go back and correct all your information using your census and how many would be left if yours were destroyed, as you say registered and not registerable. Facts are facts.

      • Yeah, Facts are facts, and core values are still alive, as long as we exercise them.
        In all the yards and yards of verbiage posted over your name, Mister Lyster, I have yet to see you acknowledge the much bigger wrong going on ; that the CFIA is performing exactly as the communists predicted they would do, once they’d ensconsed themselves in the high places of the govt.s of the West.
        See “And Not A Shot is Fired” by Jan Kozak, which explains how they completely perverted the British Christian tradition of ‘liberty under law’.
        In this instance – the Shroppies being taken by the meatheads with badges – the presumption of innocence is done away with, so that someone against whom the govt. made an allegation was required to “show cause”, ie, discharge the onus of presumed guilt. If that’s OK with you, then don’t come crying to me, when the same red fascist mentality is visited upon your homestead and does to you what the antichrist Commissars did to the Kulaks in the Holomordor, in the soviet Union.

        “there is no worse tyranny than that which is carried on under the Badge of Authority”

        you’re a fool for talking about going to Court over something like this. Get a grip on you-self and climb down off your high horse …

      • Patric Lyster

        I am a fool to perhaps go to court over this. That is a load of crap. If Ms. Jones wishes to continue to post outright false information about me and my flock, then I will sue her for defamation of character. If she wishes to call me a liar, she had better start proving it or she will end up in court.

        As to what CFIA is doing, they had enough proof of scrapie originating from her flock. She had plenty of time to prove otherwise, if she was so certain that it didn’t come from her flock. She could have had testing done herself, but did she. No. She also claims that there are no RR rams with traditional Shropshire characteristics and thus couldn’t use the pilot project. Well that is interesting because I have some that do, there are some in the USA, and there are some in England. And guess what using artificial insemination to RR rams would work under the pilot project, so her excuse doesn’t hold water.

        As to the communist issue, well that is your view. What you seem unable to comprehend is the fact that this was not a snap decision and that the CFIA tried for around 2 years to work with Ms. Jones, and never ordered her sheep destroyed until over 2 years from when WHE 24S was confirmed positive for scrapie. Based on science, in order to control the spread of scrapie, they have a protocol, and they have a pilot project to enable the preservation of rare genetics. In my opinion, Ms. Jones wasn’t having much for breeding stock sales and couldn’t (in her words) afford to register her sheep because of this. So perhaps financially things aren’t as good as she would like, and thus perhaps she coudn’t afford an RR ram, and that is the reason that she didn’t go on the pilot project. Her own lawyer said that she couldn’t afford the pilot project. But, no matter what is explained to you, you have your agenda and that is your choice.

        Oh and don’t worry, I would never come crying to you. Talk about someone on their high horse, look in the mirror. If you can’t be civil towards me and calling me names, then please refrain from adressing me.

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